Student Global Leadership Conference 2021: Panel on Changing Leadership

Hello again and welcome to the next episode in the Student Global Leadership podcast series. Today we’ll be switching it up with a panel discussion titled Changing Leadership. Moderated by FIE’s own Dr. Heidi James-Dunbar, this panel was part of our Women’s Super-Saturday at the SGLC 2021 and features Valencia Gabay, Isabella Errigo, and Eve Alcock. Let’s get to it!

Hopefully you enjoyed this thought-provoking and insightful conversation as much as the attendees at the conference did. Thank you to our moderator and our three panellists, who also individually presented sessions during the conference. We’ll link the websites and podcasts of Dr. James-Dunbar, Valencia, Isabella, and Eve in the show notes so you can check out their projects and causes. That’s all from us for today - tune in next time for the next episode in FIE’s Student Global Leadership Conference podcast series.

Dr. Heidi James-Dunbar - Blog
Eve Alcock - Rise Up podcast
Valencia Gabay - LinkedIn
Isabella Errigo - LinkedIn

Transcript

Victor:

Hello again and welcome to the next episode in the Student Global Leadership podcast series. I’m Victor Mellors with FIE and today we’ll be switching it up with a panel discussion titled Changing Leadership. Moderated by FIE’s own Dr. Heidi James-Dunbar, this panel was part of our Women’s Super-Saturday at the SGLC 2021 and features Valencia Gabay, Isabella Errigo, and Eve Alcock. Let’s get to it!

Panel:

Heidi James Dunbar  

Good afternoon and welcome to stlc panel discussion on changing leadership. In a time of instability, it is impossible to predict what the future holds indeterminant times demand strong leadership that can shore up an uncharted future. Throughout history, strong leaders have a positive and enduring change and periods of doubt. But how can today's leaders steer us on a path towards positive change? When we don't know what new surprises tomorrow will bring? I'm Dr. Heidi James Dunbar and I'm joined by Isabella Vigo, a graduate student at Brigham Young University where she is pursuing a master's degree in environmental science. Specifically, she studies how increased wildfire events impact aquatic biodiversity and water availability. Evil cop who is currently an analyst at the Clean Air fund, working across teams with a focus on communications and strategic partnerships. His background is in higher education having spent two years as president of the University of Bath Student Union, where she was a governor of the university and chair of the student Union's Board of Trustees. She has also led a women in leadership programme of work organising to conferences with external speakers and workshops, and launching our own podcast rise up which empowers women to lead. Eve holds a bachelor's degree in psychology and is currently a director at the quality assurance agency for higher education and a member of the Democratic procedures Committee for the National Union of Students. And also joining us we have Valencia gubbay is an online who's an online instructor and educational leader creating nurturing learning environments for today's global thinkers. Her research interests include virtual teams, leader humility, learning organisations, and organisational change. Valencia is a published author and international presenter, she holds a Master of Education from the University of Florida, and is completing a PhD in organisational leadership from Indiana Wesleyan University. Thank you all for joining me for this discussion. I think it's probably best if we start with me asking a question. Our modes of leadership have contributed to our current crises, the environment, the rise of far right politics, stagnation, the pandemic? How do we evolve new modes and orientations of leadership for a fairer world?

Eve Alcock  

I mean, it's a great question. And if we knew the answer in totality, we probably wouldn't be in such a mess as we are. When I was thinking about this question, the thing that the first thought that came to my head, and I'm sure others will have other thoughts is that I think we need to get out of the habit of viewing our leaders alone as our solutions. And as if they have the answer. And if only we had the right leaders, we would have the right solutions. And obviously, they're integral and helping put momentum behind solutions. But those solutions come from people. And I think in order to make progress on all of the issues that you mentioned, we need to make sure that actually the leadership is a better reflection of the people. And I think that disconnect is part of the reason why we are where we are at the moment.

Valencia Gabay  

I agree that this the idea of shared leadership, you know, and what's that look like? And what does that feel like? And I also think, leaders, those of us are in leadership positions have to begin to question our own belief systems around what leadership is and what we've kind of grown up to known for it to be and our attitudes and values towards leadership.

Isabella Errigo  

Yeah, I think just to add kind of along those lines, I completely agree with what both of them have already said. But I think that along with what he was saying is that we also have to be willing to recognise that our leaders are fallible that we, and we can't put all the blame when they do something wrong, right? Like we're still stuck in this bad situation or something bad has happened because of a choice they made while they're still learning just as we all are. And so putting such harsh blame on our leaders while we need to hold them to a high standard because they're leading large groups of people. And I hope that they will be willing to readjust their their pasts and their actions as they see mistakes that they have made or as they learn more or get more details or insight into what's happening. Um, but I think that just remembering that there are people just as we are is really probably a good way to go.

Heidi James Dunbar  

I don't know if you guys have heard of George Monbiot. He's a fantastic journalist here in the UK, and He's very much involved in environmental justice and really thinks deeply in an interconnected way. And he was asked today on Twitter, if you would ever go into politics? And he said, No, because I actually think the political system as it stands, needs to change in that, which is something you, you guys have all highlighted. But let's hope you don't mind. I want to just come back a little bit, because you said something really interesting about, you know, the types of questions that leaders are asking themselves what questions might leaders because many of us will be in some position of leadership in some form, whether it's managing a small team, but what kinds of questions do you think we should be asking ourselves?

Valencia Gabay  

There's my leadership style fit the moment? What I think about leadership, does it align with what's going on today? So we use there are some people who still have the very male dominant views of leadership, and they're operating from those, those perspectives. And sometimes you don't always know it. So the idea of just self reflection, right, what is my understanding of leadership? Is that leadership style meeting the moment Do I need to have more diverse leadership practice? Because we are leading across generations, we have the baby boomers, and we've got the millennials are leading across different cultures, different religions. And so as we enter these spaces, where we're working with more diverse groups, we have to begin to question what our leadership style looks like, in those moments,

Eve Alcock  

so true. For me, what that comes down to is self awareness. And when I think I mean, I've only been on the planet 25 years, right, so not not a whole lot of time. But when I think about some of the most prominent leaders, not from the outside, it doesn't look like loads of them have particularly high self awareness or emotional intelligence, or awareness of their own limitations. As Isabella said, obviously, it's important that we, as people, see our leaders as fallible and that they have limitations. But it's another thing as well to actually have leaders who are aware of their own limitations, and that humility and vulnerability, we don't see in leaders and we often don't see it, because people don't allow leaders to be human and vulnerable. But I think that that self awareness, and that kind of emotional maturity is huge. And that's not something that's modelled in the predominant leadership style when we think about leadership at the moment.

Heidi James Dunbar  

Yeah, that is also think that Sorry, go ahead. Please.

Valencia Gabay  

I was just gonna add to Eve when she talks about humility, that's so important, humble leaders today, courageous leaders. But also this goes back to understanding what humility is and what it's not. So when we think about humility, some people might think that means we're being weak, when we kind of define what humility is, it is being aware of our limitations of knowledge, and our ability to cultivate wisdom and use that. And so I think sometimes, and it might be in the Western culture where that idea of being a humble leader means not not to do that to be weak, when it really doesn't. So that's an excellent point.

Heidi James Dunbar  

Yeah,

Isabella Errigo  

I think, Oh, sorry. I just think along those lines with humility, okay. I just think along those lines with humility, is like as a leader asking, right and a new time and new when there's new and unprecedented times, which is what we're hearing all the time these days, right? When we find ourselves in these times, or with these new pandemics, or environmental issues are just things that no leader has had to pass through before. So we can't look to our past. We can't look to our history, for examples, or we have to look really far back to our history. So what they did may not really apply to our society today is asking, asking the community asking minority groups asking, right creating, that's why we have advisors and panels as leaders to help us make these hard decisions. And I think a huge part of humility, as both Valencia and Eve have mentioned is looking at is looking at those that we have around us and asking what they think and from their experiences and their knowledge and their expertise. Because as one human, we only have so much that we can choose from but as a whole society or community or global community. We have so much more.

Heidi James Dunbar  

You guys have just talked beautifully into what would have been my next question which would be about how do we mesh and interlink in an increasingly connected world without re encountering cultural chauvinism and tyranny and some privileged ignorance which we've seen far too often and continue to see. So you've talked about that before? I don't if you want to add any more towards that, but how do we mesh and interlink without And the kind of cultural privileges and chauvinism and this is the way we do it and our ways better or ignoring other voices. And because we are, you know, we cannot ignore, particularly at the moment, our interconnectivity, which has been writ large by the pandemic, isn't it?

Isabella Errigo  

Yeah, I think just kind of along the lines of what I just said, um, I think that living in such a connected world has brought a lot of negative things. But I also think that it brings so much good and so much positivity, but we just have to learn how to work with other people, right. It's like such a basic principle that we were supposed to learn when we were in preschool. But I think that learning how to work well with others how to recognise people's differences, how to recognise are like, where we fall short, and our own biases that we grew up with, based on our own personal experiences. Um, but once we've learned that, and I mean, it's not something you learn, and then you're good at something, I think that you always continue to develop on and to learn more. But I think once you have learned this principle, at least the basics of it, the connected world that we have, will call provide so much benefit and so much good because there's so many different experiences and so much diversity that will allow us to then move forward with like, more informed and more educated and with better decisions. So,

Valencia Gabay  

Isabel, I appreciate that conversation, because coming from an organisational learning perspective, or organisational culture perspective, leaders have that kind of responsibility to create a space for learning within organisations and to steer that so I believe it was like shine, he does, um, work on organisational culture he talked about we are being in this rapidity of change, we are becoming leaders and followers are becoming lifelong learners. And that's what it's about that we're continually learning about ourselves about different cultures. But the other aspect of it is this to understand that culture is not without conflict that goes hand in hand. And then how do we you know, mitigate that conflict when the skills and tools we have to mitigate that conflict that comes because of culture?

Heidi James Dunbar  

Do you have any thoughts about how we might do that Valencia?

Valencia Gabay  

Well, I think it also kind of starts with examining our cultural training programmes within organisations. Are they robust enough? Are we talking about the difference between what diversity is and inclusion is because we sometimes use those words interchangeably? And they're two different concepts and our programmes running through the entire thread of the organisation? Because we sometimes see it in one aspect of you do a training once a year, and you check the box that you've done the training, but do we see it again? Are we living those things each and every day within our organisations? And how do we hold ourselves accountable for those sorts of things?

Heidi James Dunbar  

Absolutely. Did you want to add to that?

Eve Alcock  

I mean, I, I agree with everything that you said. And I guess the key to that interconnected point as well, is that if you flip it with a positive, we don't have to do this alone. We don't have to work things out on our own, because we're so connected now that somebody out there has the answer, or they've been through it, or they can help you. And if anything, the key is, is realising that it's better to do things together, rather than thinking you can do it on your brain. And we've seen a lot of moves towards more isolationist, sort of turning our backs on community and collaboration and thinking that we can do this alone and take back control and all of that kind of stuff. And actually, that's not how we get anything done. It hasn't been how we've got things done in the past, and it won't be in the future. And so any, any move towards turning our shoulder away from that interconnectedness, actually is just taking us backwards in progress.

Heidi James Dunbar  

Yes, yeah, absolutely. Do you think I mean, I was when I was reading to prepare for this and I was thinking about the questions shortly, I wanted to find some questions that would stimulate conversation. One of the things I was thinking about that come up was was the question of the potential for colour collectivism, or democratic leadership styles, that they might endanger them, the minority and that the majority speaks and therefore there are voices or people or groups left unheard and potentially in danger or suppressed and oppressed because they are not fitting in and even in a society that is attempting to do its absolute best. Are they are we listening like there are potential dangers and how do we work around those? What do we do about that?

Valencia Gabay  

That's a good point. I know, you know, and being here, after going through four years of our president is now we have a new president, there are people who were saying our voices weren't heard, how do we get heard? How do we get seen, and I think it's the understanding that while collectivism is, is good, I always believe in balance, balance is so important. Because when the individualism, you get to know somebody on an intimate level, right, you get to realise that their struggle is a little bit different than your struggle. So there is time there are times I think we do need to kind of while we do have this collectivist approach, understand that there may be voices that don't get heard and that and how do we then begin to listen or create a space for those individuals. And I think it's also about creating a space of psychological safety, because a lot of people don't feel safe saying things, right. And certain things on either side, whether it's the left or the right to say things without getting, you know, hurt, or something aggressive, or those sorts of things. And so I think it's beginning to create the psychological safety for people to come to this space to have the conversations because it's about the ability to have the conversation, right? I don't have to necessarily agree with what you say. But we have to be able to come across, you know, the bridge, or you can't stand on one side of the bridge and just be over here. How do we kind of meet in the middle to have the conversation? And that's a, that's a tough thing to answer, particularly in the time that we're living in right now.

Isabella Errigo  

I really, really like that point. Because I think that no matter what system we have in place, there will always be people who aren't heard, right? There's always going to be groups of people. What was you know, that it's just inevitable in such a big community when we're trying to govern an entire country rather than a small town or a state? Right. And I think, but what you were saying Valenti about the importance of safety, I have been so disappointed as the political year has rolled out, I've been so disappointed in my own friends and family and community members and people I don't know, and how they are bashing each other, like not even they're not even saying, I disagree with your opinion. They're saying, I don't like you. And I don't have to like you because of your political opinion. And I think that that is not i think that that is the opposite direction we want to go in. And so I think that starting by like reconstructing this mental and emotional safety for people to share their political and not even political, just their own opinions and experiences and ideologies is so important. And probably the first step in being able to move forward. 

Eve Alcock  

super interesting, because I feels like ages ago, when I was writing my dissertation, I was writing it about the youth justice system. But there's two concepts. One is procedural justice, and what is distributive justice. And the procedural justice is that even if people don't get the outcome they want. So think about a democratic process, you don't get the outcome that you were hoping for, if you felt like you had your voice heard along the way, during that process, and that you had ample time to talk about how you felt to share your ideas with other people, you are scientifically more likely to accept and work with an outcome than if you got the outcome. But when invoked when that involved along the way, and didn't feel like you had your voice heard along the way, and that it's really similar in that like, democracy work, by virtue of its system will always fall down on one side or another as to which party gets in. But it's about the process. And the process doesn't have to be party political, the process should be the way that our cultural society goes about collecting the collective intelligence of its citizens about how to solve complex problems in society. And I think that's, that's one of the keys that that we we don't have down. I mean, people talk a lot about citizens assemblies and stuff, the way that our processes work at the moment we treat people like consumers, and that their representatives are people that will do things for them. And so it's a very transactional process. And then we get even more frustrated when we see our leader not doing the thing that we wanted them to do, right. But what if you start flipping, viewing people, from consumers of democracy, to a citizen that has agency in a community and then those leaders, the job of those leaders, is to facilitate the action of the people and bring people together to solve those problems. And it's Those structures actually, that if you can get those right, the democracy process on top should go much smoother, if that makes sense,

Valencia Gabay  

that sounds like that, that community based asset kind of ideology where we have the answer within our communities, we don't necessarily have to have someone come in and try to tell us what to do. But we're aware of the resources that we have or well of our assets, and then how to kind of do the shared leadership to get it to work. So that makes sense to me. Absolutely.

 
Heidi James Dunbar  

You guys, you have some perfect, awesome, wonderful boys in the big safeties is crucial. Because if you feel safe, you tend not to be reactionary, tend not to fall into a polarised position. If you're being heard, and you're not being either valorize or demonised, you're right, we listen to one another. I think as well, you the idea that there are shared goals, the quote, the environmental emergency at the moment, that should be our shared goal doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum we fall on. And that idea of having a shared goal, and therefore, we all come together to work on it in whatever way we can as citizens, as you say, but why are we waiting for someone to go up? And can you fix it, please, because we know that doesn't work. We don't do that in any of our other relationships. We don't we do that and our families as we small children might. But as we grow, we don't do that at work, you know, we understand we have responsibilities and that there is a shared movement towards that. I think we should run we should we should be the leader.

Eve Alcock  

This is the manifesto, we're co creating.

Heidi James Dunbar  

We are actually coming quite close to time, which is a shame because I could sit and listen to you guys for a very long time. It's just wonderful. But is there anything you'd like to say? Any any final thoughts? anything you'd like to say in conclusion, before we turn to taking questions,

Eve Alcock  

there's, I was thinking about when I've had conversations about leadership in the past. And I think we touched on it. But leadership is changing, right? The idea of a suited and booted CEO at the top of the company is what sometimes we think about, if you say leadership, if you type in leadership, it's what comes up in Google Images. Those people are usually men. But one of the best definitions that I have heard of leadership, is when you have a group of people going together wanting to achieve something. And one person says, screw it, I'll go first. It's not because they have any prerequisite to be destined to be CEO or any of this kind of stuff. It's just having the courage to take a step forward and go, Okay, cool. And those people provided it was a you know, grassroots movement will come with you. But you just become the point of the triangle of that movement. But you're not separated from it. And you are amongst those people. And so the idea that all it takes is just to go Screw it. I'll go first, actually, I think takes away all of the jargon and the the imposter syndrome we sometimes face when we think about leadership, and it's just about taking that first step and the rest follows.

Valencia Gabay  

Just to piggyback off of that, it's excellent. Absolutely. I love that you've is, I don't know how many of you read Glennon Doyle, some of her work. The thing she says all the time on Twitter is we can do hard things. And I sometimes think we as humans don't think we're complex beings. We are complex, just with who we are. And we have the ability to do hard things. So I think sometimes we forget that that we are packed and equipped with everything that we need to solve these issues. But I think it's the other stuff that kind of gets in the way, and we're not able to kind of move through so we can do hard things. That's my last. My last word, you can do hard things.

Isabella Errigo  

I guess my last thought, something I've been thinking about as we've been talking and as I was kind of thinking about this panel coming up, um, I lead and I teach an international development course at my university and we do this activity, this pharma activity, I can't remember what it stands for. But it's this activity about like community leadership and for International Development, it's about instead of like white Saviour ism going in and like leading, it's about giving the power to the community that you're trying to help develop themselves. And I just think about that so much in leadership and like as a community as a diverse society. As a global connected community. We have so much strength and so much power. And as you were saying we can do hard things and with our combined knowledge and with our combined experiences and capacity, we have so much more power and I think about instead of giving the power to one leader and looking to one leader all the time taking the power into our own hands and leading as a community and we you know whether that means a campus community, whether that means a town community, a state, a nation, our global community, but I think taking art, taking that power in that leadership into our own hands and working together based on our combined experiences, is so important and beneficial.

Heidi James Dunbar  

I mean, this is wonderful. Thank you so much. I feel really uplifted by this conversation. I wish we could talk for more longer. This is just wonderful. Thank you so much. And but we are out of time. I want to thank you so much for your incredibly valuable and insightful comments in the discussion. It's, it's wonderful, and then we can turn to our audience. If they could please type any questions into the chat function, and we will do our best to answer them. Thanks again. Thank you so much.

Victor:

Hopefully you enjoyed this thought provoking and insightful conversation as much as the attendees at the conference did. Thank you to our moderator and our three panellists, who also individually presented sessions during the conference. We’ll link the websites and podcasts of Dr. James-Dunbar, Valencia, Isabella, and Eve in the show notes so you can check out their projects and causes. That’s all from us for today - tune in next time for the next episode in FIE’s Student Global Leadership Conference podcast series.